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#1 March 26, 2008 22:24:30

Tex T.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] The weapons of mass destruction in the intl extension


-----Original Message-----
From: Derick Rethans
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:49 AM
To: Tex Texin
Cc: Marcus Boerger; Pierre Joye; ; PHP Developers Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: Graphemes and unicode vs intl extension

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Tex Texin wrote:

> Pierre, Marcus, et al.
>
> 1) The project started a year or so ago. A few of us from different
> companies had a strong need to see that PHP had international
> collation, formats, normalization, grapheme support, and other
> functions in a time frame nearer than php 6. The resulting intl
> extension has been out for a while, first with collation, then with
> some formatters. Stas made announces to the php-i18n list at least as
> early as July 17 (possibly earlier). The specs were posted to php-i18n
> and there has been discussion on the list over time.
>
> The manual documentation was announced by Stas for review to this list
> as well on Dec 4.
>
> So there has been opportunity for input on the specs and the project
> is above board. No one is "deciding anything about PHP". There have
> been 300 downloads since Dec. so some people know about it. There have
> not been many requests for changes.

I think the major problem is that because discussions about it happen off-list,
there is not much exposure on what you're doing and thus little feedback.
That's the whole problems with splitting off to a different list for something
that you're targetting to include in the core. So I don't think it's that
strange that there is now a large group of people being not-so-happy about what
you're trying to do here.


Derick,
I understand the concern, but it is really a quite theoretical concern.
The intl extension is a PHP wrapper around ICU API. The code layer is very thin.

Most of the off-list discussions were about things like how do we return errors
to PHP, (what is the coding standard for this, not designing a new approach to
returning errors) and bugs with different ports and status reporting on who is
doing what. As we are volunteers, we needed to check if we were actually making
progress or were people busy with other (unrelated) tasks, and should we
rejigger the tasking. Some of the discussion was about how to make the manual
documentation.

There were only a few places where we discussed offering a more php-like syntax
compared to ICU API. Taking advantage of arrays for example.
Even there, the layer is very thin.
The locales API is one of the few places where we wrote some code to simplify
parsing and composing locale identifiers for PHP users.

Because we wanted to meet the 5.3 release dates, and because the development
proved more difficult than we orginally estimated, we scaled back on delivering
some of the API originally proposed. Support for date objects was one of the
items that was left out of the original plans for this release. The reason was
workload and timing. It was desired, but we couldn't resource it.

The project was scoped to fit into the 5.3 time frame and the goal was to just
fix limitations of PHP internationalization, not to try to do everything in PHP
5, so we had a minimalistic approach.

So I understand the worry, but the conjecture that there were a lot of choices
and design decisions that the list should have been privy too, is just fantasy.
And like the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, there is nothing hazardous
to find.

So what you see is mostly a fairly obvious mapping of ICU to PHP. We posted the
API to this list last year and the changes have been few.
Some functions were withdrawn, some minor tweaks.

If there is an issue with the extension it should be transparent by looking at
the API and determining whether it meets PHP users' needs. What we did is a
reflection of what ICU offers. In some cases we considered enhancing or
compensating for ICU deficiencies and we generally didn't so there wouldn't be
conflicts with future versions of either ICU or PHP 6.

I hope that helps. I don't think I can say any more that would be convincing.
If people want to believe we are a secret cabal out to undermine PHP, than ok.
I don't think there is anything we need to apologize for. Whatever the worries,
you can read the manual, and see the code. If you see evidence of something
deleterious to PHP please point it out using the bug system.

I don't think I can take the time to continue to say the off-list discussions
were insignificant to this list.
The doc and the code speaks for what we did. I would be glad to discuss the
code and the doc.



tex

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#2 March 26, 2008 22:35:32

Pierre J.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] The weapons of mass destruction in the intl extension


On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Tex Texin <> wrote:
Hi Tex,

> I understand the concern, but it is really a quite theoretical concern.
> The intl extension is a PHP wrapper around ICU API. The code layer is very
> thin.

This theoretical concern is actually how we work. It does not matter
if you think it is not important or that you don't have to follow it.
If one wants us to be happy, to embrace his work or to contribute in
any form, the minimum to do is to respect our way of working. Writing
code is fine, that's what many of us do, but if one likes to merge his
work in PHP, he better has to apply our relatively small rules and
principles.

> Because we wanted to meet the 5.3 release dates, and because the development
> proved more difficult than we orginally estimated, we scaled back on
> delivering some of the API originally proposed. Support for date objects was
> one of the items that was left out of the original plans for this release.
> The reason was workload and timing. It was desired, but we couldn't resource
> it.

No offense, but I do think that you may have won more contributors (I
wonder if it was even necessary given the amount of committers I saw)
if you were discussing the project on php-18n and called for help
earlier. I18n is a very important missing piece of PHP.


> So I understand the worry, but the conjecture that there were a lot of
> choices and design decisions that the list should have been privy too, is
> just fantasy. And like the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, there is
> nothing hazardous to find.

Actually there is something hazardous to find, why this private list?
Please understand why I (and afaics other) worry about such behaviors,
especially from Zend or Y!.

> I hope that helps. I don't think I can say any more that would be
> convincing. If people want to believe we are a secret cabal out to undermine
> PHP, than ok. I don't think there is anything we need to apologize for.
> Whatever the worries, you can read the manual, and see the code. If you see
> evidence of something deleterious to PHP please point it out using the bug
> system.

I think you should apologize yes. Or at least enlight us about the
reasons why you created a private list despite that your initial
php-icu announcement was talking about (which
is a nearly dead cow and gives the impression that it has nothing to
do with what is happening in CVS, from an activity point of view).

> I don't think I can take the time to continue to say the off-list
> discussions were insignificant to this list.

I agree, as long as you don't understand the underlying concept behind
our worries.

Cheers,
--
Pierrehttp://blog.thepimp.net|http://www.libgd.org--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit:http://www.php.net/unsub.php

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#3 March 26, 2008 22:39:16

Marcus B.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] The weapons of mass destruction in the intl extension


Hello Tex,

Wednesday, March 26, 2008, 10:22:33 PM, you wrote:

>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derick Rethans
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: Tex Texin
> Cc: Marcus Boerger; Pierre Joye; ; PHP Developers Mailing
> List
> Subject: RE: Re: Graphemes and unicode vs intl extension

> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Tex Texin wrote:

>> Pierre, Marcus, et al.
>>
>> 1) The project started a year or so ago. A few of us from different
>> companies had a strong need to see that PHP had international
>> collation, formats, normalization, grapheme support, and other
>> functions in a time frame nearer than php 6. The resulting intl
>> extension has been out for a while, first with collation, then with
>> some formatters. Stas made announces to the php-i18n list at least as
>> early as July 17 (possibly earlier). The specs were posted to php-i18n
>> and there has been discussion on the list over time.
>>
>> The manual documentation was announced by Stas for review to this list
>> as well on Dec 4.
>>
>> So there has been opportunity for input on the specs and the project
>> is above board. No one is "deciding anything about PHP". There have
>> been 300 downloads since Dec. so some people know about it. There have
>> not been many requests for changes.

> I think the major problem is that because discussions about it happen
> off-list, there is not much exposure on what you're doing and thus little
> feedback. That's the whole problems with splitting off to a different list
> for something that you're targetting to include in the core. So I don't
> think it's that strange that there is now a large group of people being
> not-so-happy about what you're trying to do here.


> Derick,
> I understand the concern, but it is really a quite theoretical concern.
> The intl extension is a PHP wrapper around ICU API. The code layer is very
> thin.

> Most of the off-list discussions were about things like how do we return
> errors to PHP, (what is the coding standard for this, not designing a new
> approach to returning errors) and bugs with different ports and status
> reporting on who is doing what. As we are volunteers, we needed to check
> if we were actually making progress or were people busy with other
> (unrelated) tasks, and should we rejigger the tasking. Some of the
> discussion was about how to make the manual documentation.

> There were only a few places where we discussed offering a more php-like
> syntax compared to ICU API. Taking advantage of arrays for example.
> Even there, the layer is very thin.
> The locales API is one of the few places where we wrote some code to
> simplify parsing and composing locale identifiers for PHP users.

> Because we wanted to meet the 5.3 release dates, and because the
> development proved more difficult than we orginally estimated, we scaled
> back on delivering some of the API originally proposed. Support for date
> objects was one of the items that was left out of the original plans for
> this release. The reason was workload and timing. It was desired, but we
> couldn't resource it.

> The project was scoped to fit into the 5.3 time frame and the goal was to
> just fix limitations of PHP internationalization, not to try to do
> everything in PHP 5, so we had a minimalistic approach.

> So I understand the worry, but the conjecture that there were a lot of
> choices and design decisions that the list should have been privy too, is
> just fantasy. And like the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, there is
> nothing hazardous to find.

> So what you see is mostly a fairly obvious mapping of ICU to PHP. We
> posted the API to this list last year and the changes have been few.
> Some functions were withdrawn, some minor tweaks.

> If there is an issue with the extension it should be transparent by
> looking at the API and determining whether it meets PHP users' needs. What
> we did is a reflection of what ICU offers. In some cases we considered
> enhancing or compensating for ICU deficiencies and we generally didn't so
> there wouldn't be conflicts with future versions of either ICU or PHP 6.

> I hope that helps. I don't think I can say any more that would be
> convincing. If people want to believe we are a secret cabal out to
> undermine PHP, than ok. I don't think there is anything we need to
> apologize for. Whatever the worries, you can read the manual, and see the
> code. If you see evidence of something deleterious to PHP please point it out
> using the bug system.

> I don't think I can take the time to continue to say the off-list
> discussions were insignificant to this list.
> The doc and the code speaks for what we did. I would be glad to discuss the
> code and the doc.

Sounds good. So now everyone should have a look. And when finding something
report here. If not, you'll be fine with intl.

marcus







Best regards,
Marcus


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#4 March 27, 2008 00:39:11

Stanislav M.
Registered: 2009-11-02
Reputation: +  0  -
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[PHP-DEV] The weapons of mass destruction in the intl extension


Hi!No offense, but I do think that you may have won more contributors (I
wonder if it was even necessary given the amount of committers I saw)
if you were discussing the project on php-18n and called for help
earlier. I18n is a very important missing piece of PHP.What part of "announced in July 2007, again in August 2007, beta againin December 2007" gives you most trouble understanding?Actually there is something hazardous to find, why this private list?To have actually some work done, as opposed to refuting never-endingstream of conspiracy theories.--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
http://www.zend.com/(408)253-8829 MSN:

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PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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#5 March 27, 2008 00:47:03

Pierre J.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] The weapons of mass destruction in the intl extension


On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM, Stanislav Malyshev <> wrote:
> Actually there is something hazardous to find, why this private list?
>
> To have actually some work done, as opposed to refuting never-ending
> stream of conspiracy theories.

Only you have seen our complains as "a stream of conspiracy theories".
Please close the php-icu list and move all discussions to php-i18n,
respect and follow our way of working and things will get better.
That's not hard to understand. Principles do not exactly exist for the
sake of having principles, some have justified roots.

But yes, points made and I seriously hope that you learned something.
Let us go back to code.

Cheers,
--
Pierrehttp://blog.thepimp.net|http://www.libgd.org--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit:http://www.php.net/unsub.php

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