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#1 April 6, 2010 18:08:07

b.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


(Wayne knows I was talking about a new footprint format.)> Check this out:       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDIF>It is a good read, and it has some nice references at the bottom.>Frank Bennett has that sourceforge based edif2kicad translator.  Hi Dick: I'm have trouble Navigating around on launchpad, so I will reply via Email.Also I will not be able to contribute much... I, the Linux bigot, am on a 6month firmware contract with the evil empire, Microsoft. My investigations lead me to believe that EDIF has been abandoned, usedmostly for schematics and symbols and not much for PCB layout or footprints,except for OrCad schematic out, even though the orginal intent was for both. A better candidate for footprints is IPC-7351 Here is a pointer to a viewer and spec:http://www.pcbmatrix.com/downloads/LPSoftware.aspI though there was a parser out there somewhere... and here are 3 sample libraries referenced at:http://www.freepcb.com/downloads.htmVersionContentsLink6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Least pad size)IPC7351-Least_v2.zip6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Nominal pad size)IPC7351-Nominal_v2.zip6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Most pad size)IPC7351-Most_v2.zipInteresting that 3 different quality footprint choices are provided... happy coding,-Frank _______________________________________________
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#2 April 6, 2010 18:37:58

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


bennet***@*igis.net wrote:(Wayne knows I was talking about a new footprint format.)

> Check this out:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDIF>It is a good read, and it has some nice references at the bottom.>Frank Bennett has that sourceforge based edif2kicad translator.Hi Dick:I'm have trouble Navigating around on launchpad, so I will reply viaEmail.Also I will not be able to contribute much... I, the Linux bigot,am on a 6month firmware contract with the evil empire, Microsoft.My investigations lead me to believe that EDIF has been abandoned, usedmostly for schematics and symbols and not much for PCB layout orfootprints,except for OrCad schematic out, even though the orginal intent was forboth.A better candidate for footprints is IPC-7351Here is a pointer to a viewer and spec:http://www.pcbmatrix.com/downloads/LPSoftware.aspI though there was a parser out there somewhere...and here are 3 sample libraries referenced at:http://www.freepcb.com/downloads.htm*Version* *Contents* *Link*

6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Least pad size) IPC7351-Least_v2.zip<http://www.freepcb.com/downloads/IPC7351-Least_v2.zip>6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Nominal pad size) IPC7351-Nominal_v2.zip<http://www.freepcb.com/downloads/IPC7351-Nominal_v2.zip>6.20.00IPC-7351 footprints (Most pad size) IPC7351-Most_v2.zip<http://www.freepcb.com/downloads/IPC7351-Most_v2.zip>Interesting that 3 different quality footprint choices are provided...happy coding,-FrankThanks but I will be investing my time in human readable formats, evenif we have to re-invent the wheel. Sure maybe some concepts can beborrowed, but the format fails every test I just listed in my lastemail, including the ability to be handled with DSNLEXER.Adopting this exact format, ain't where I will be spending any of myvaluable time.However, as I say, I will read through it looking for concepts.

But what we will end up using will look like the lispy stuff.


Dick



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#3 April 6, 2010 18:47:25

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


Thanks but I will be investing my time in human readable formats, evenif we have to re-invent the wheel. Sure maybe some concepts can beborrowed, but the format fails every test I just listed in my lastemail, including the ability to be handled with DSNLEXER.Adopting this exact format, ain't where I will be spending any of myvaluable time.However, as I say, I will read through it looking for concepts.

But what we will end up using will look like the lispy stuff.


DickHaving said that, I am reminded of my larger plan to support footprintplugins. There is a format that this is actually handed to the kicadprogram from the plugin, and this is part of the footprint retrievalAPI. Here I am saying lispy.But the actual format this retrieved from storage can be anything that aplugin wants, it then has to do an in memory conversion on it beforereturning it to kicad. So this standard format can certainly besupported with a plugin.Dick


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#4 April 6, 2010 22:49:04

Lorenzo M.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, bennet***@*igis.net wrote:A better candidate for footprints is IPC-7351
 
Here is a pointer to a viewer and spec:http://www.pcbmatrix.com/downloads/LPSoftware.aspI though there was a parser out there somewhere...IIRC the format was closed since they actually make you pay for the
footprint generators for the various cad packages...

OTOH it's a CSV with an 'encoded' data field (like base64 but not
that) so if it isn't really encrypted we could extract the info playing
with the editor.

Just remember that these files only contains the PARAMETERS of
the pad (pitch, pin size and so on). The actual shape and position is
calculated using the technology parameters set and the formulas in the
IPC standard (you have to pay for these).

Last but not least, it can only represents 'regular' patterns, i.e.
you can't say "I want this single pad bigger because it's a thermal
sink"

So the IPC format can be tought as a *source* of modules (you can
actually generate more or less the hole JEDEC repertoire in full auto with
them...) but not as a storage format (it can't even handle custom
graphics, only bounding boxes an playgrounds)Interesting that 3 different quality footprint choices are provided...These are different compromises between integration (board filling)
and mechanical properties (tombstoning risks and similar things).
In my experience each board assembler want its own pad layout:
I actually had to redo a board (tooling, photoplots and all the other
stuff) because the new assembly had a p'n'p which needed bigger
pads for the SOT-23.

That aside, the IPC patterns are a good starting point for a custom
production library (yes, I have different modules libraries
depending on the assembler AND on copper weight: 70um has different
solderability rules than 35um).

The worst was that time when they made me *move a connector*
because there was 'shadowing' during THT wave soldering (I just *love*
reflow compatible connectors:D)

--
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl_______________________________________________
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#5 April 8, 2010 17:41:55

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


Opendous Support wrote:It would be really helpful if you sent out some sort of discussion
summary of what conclusions were reached on the Yahoo lists for those
who have not been following them closely.Dear Mr. Support:


I am currently thinking that the launchpad blueprint mechanism might
work OK to communicate my plans WRT the footprint retrieval API,
clipboard support, plugins, and new footprint library format. A picture
may be worth a thousand words, and I hope I can get a picture of the
proposed architecture on there somehow, as a PDF or SVG or what not. I
should be ramping up soon.


Regards,

Dick




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#6 April 8, 2010 18:42:15

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


Opendous Support wrote:Dick,

That sounds really useful. Thanks for the FAQ posting on footprints as well.

Please consider some sort of "Get Started" or "KiCAD and LaunchPad
and YOU" tutorial which gives a quick overview of how the facilities
are intended to be used. I am new to LaunchPad and it is a very
"busy" interface. It seems you intend to have core and subsidiary
developers supported on the same platform but the platform seems
heavily skewed towards the core developers. If it is too difficult
for small contributors to get their bearings you will keep getting
spammed with neophyte questions or they will give up and go away.

Thanks,
Matt,
Opendous Inc. - Open and Stupendous ElectronicsHi Matt,

Nice to know you, from:https://launchpad.net/~opendous-supportWhile we are offering ways to improve dealing with each other, might Isuggest that you record your name somewhere in your launchpadidentification.Unless you are posting everyday, it will be difficult to remember yourname unless you tell us your name in your id.-------------------------------------Regarding your suggestions, volunteers are welcome. Here is what I havetime for now:Folks can post patches to the mailing list as usual. Folks can createtheir own launchpad repos. Folks can go through the bzr tutorial Istated a couple of days ago.Folks can establish confidence within the team and be admitted tokicad-testing-committers.Enough? IMO, anymore would entail reading more here than must be readabout bzr and launchpad to actually use it. Other volunteers may have adifferent opinion and are welcome to improve the overall experienceanyway they can.Thanks,

Dick



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#7 April 8, 2010 18:48:00

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


.... are welcome to improve the overall experience anyway they can.


Thanks,

DickMaybe the email I sent out the other day regarding the teams andresources should or could be promoted by somebody to a FAQ.Thanks for the suggestion, but there is no shortage of them. Theshortage is in time to implement. And this is partially an agreementthat the tools here are indeed intended to make the jobs of thoseactually doing the work easier._______________________________________________
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#8 April 8, 2010 19:45:24

Opendous S.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


> all are welcome to improve the overall experience anyway they can

Here is what I was thinking would have helped me. Place a "Getting
Started" link on the front page (https://launchpad.net/kicad) which
links to a FAQ page. If the FAQ front page
(https://answers.launchpad.net/kicad/+faqs) can be edited that would
be even better. Consider the following format:




KiCAD in Launchpad is the main resource for KiCAD developers. For
help with _using_ KiCAD please refer to the User Group:http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/and the Wiki Page:http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_PageHow Can I Help
````````````````
Do you want to help with the implementation of a feature?
Visit for current
works-in-progress

Do you want to add a feature?
1) Grab the latest source branch:
$ cd <to a place just above where I wanted the working copy>
$ bzr branch lp:kicad kicad.bzr
2) Code your feature
3) Add your branch viahttps://code.launchpad.net/kicad/+addbranch4) Inform fellow developers of your work via:https://answers.launchpad.net/kicad/+addquestionDo you have KiCAD schematic symbols or layout footprints you would
like to contribute?
Join the KiCAD Library launchpad team:https://launchpad.net/~kicad-lib-committersThen
libraries tohttps://code.launchpad.net/kicad-newlibDo you want to help with translating KiCAD?
NOT YET READY! Visithttps://translations.launchpad.net/kicadQuick Links
```````````
Bazaar VCS Help:http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.dev/en/mini-tutorial/index.htmlDownload Releases:http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_PageMailing List:http://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/threads.htmlFAQ/Answers:http://answers.launchpad.net/kicadMain Author's Site:http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Dick Hollenbeck <d***@*oftplc.com> wrote:
>
>>  .... are welcome to improve the overall experience anyway they can.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dick
>
> Maybe the email I sent out the other day regarding the teams and resources
> should or could be promoted by somebody to a FAQ.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion, but there is no shortage of them. The shortage is
> in time to implement.  And this is partially an agreement that the tools
> here are indeed intended to make the jobs of those actually doing the work
> easier.
>
>
>

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#9 April 8, 2010 22:06:00

Dick H.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


Opendous Support wrote:all are welcome to improve the overall experience anyway they canHere is what I was thinking would have helped me. Place a "Getting
Started" link on the front page (https://launchpad.net/kicad) which
links to a FAQ page. If the FAQ front page
(https://answers.launchpad.net/kicad/+faqs) can be edited that would
be even better. Consider the following format:




KiCAD in Launchpad is the main resource for KiCAD developers. For
help with _using_ KiCAD please refer to the User Group:http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/and the Wiki Page:http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_PageHow Can I Help
````````````````
Do you want to help with the implementation of a feature?
Visit for current
works-in-progress

Do you want to add a feature?
1) Grab the latest source branch:
$ cd <to a place just above where I wanted the working copy>
$ bzr branch lp:kicad kicad.bzr
2) Code your feature
3) Add your branch viahttps://code.launchpad.net/kicad/+addbranch4) Inform fellow developers of your work via:https://answers.launchpad.net/kicad/+addquestionDo you have KiCAD schematic symbols or layout footprints you would
like to contribute?
Join the KiCAD Library launchpad team:https://launchpad.net/~kicad-lib-committersThen
libraries tohttps://code.launchpad.net/kicad-newlibDo you want to help with translating KiCAD?
NOT YET READY! Visithttps://translations.launchpad.net/kicadQuick Links
```````````
Bazaar VCS Help:http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.dev/en/mini-tutorial/index.htmlDownload Releases:http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_PageMailing List:http://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/threads.htmlFAQ/Answers:http://answers.launchpad.net/kicadMain Author's Site:http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/Matt,

Looks very good to me, except:1) Re: patches. preferences for somebody just driving by: send tomailing list. for C++ somebody who lives here: ask for entry intokicad-testing-committers. For someone who lives here and is makingmajor exploratory surgery e.g. looking/wanting to do a kidneytransplant: create your own branch.2) Please reference the FAQ I posted for footprints with a hyper link.3) needs to include a link to the mailing list posting I made about thevarious resources and teams, I think. Maybe an http link to the mailinglist page.Otherwise, looks very good. Do you have the ability to get this in thehome page, if not do you want that ability?Dick



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#10 April 9, 2010 07:32:04

Lorenzo M.
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[Kicad-developers] New file formats


On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Opendous Support wrote:Lorenzo,

It is better you do not post your private footprint collection if
they cannot be incorporated into KiCAD. The Non-Commercial clause
will make them useless and just complicate things for someone down the
road.I published the branch anyway, the non-commercial clause is evident.
Today I'll ask for permission for commercial status (should not be
a problem, I'm just being careful). As a policy I'm being paid to fix
problems with kicad/develop features if it aid the company, so
publishing the libraries *even for commercial work* should not be
a problem.If they were created in a work-for-hire situation then you do not
own them and it could create problems for you.No problem with that. We *explicitly* keep possession of all the work
(projects, prototypes, IP) even for commission work. We aren't *designer
consultants*, we sell the final product. I.E. you want a machine, we
don't design the machine for you, we sell you the final products (and,
if not in the contract clauses, we can sell it to someone else too :D).I create all my own footprints anyway so I was really just curious
to see other's procedures.For pro work you need to make you footprints anyway since there is no
fab facility alike out there. The CSP packages were a PITA to make
anyway and are a good study case.

--
Lorenzo Marcantonio
Logos Srl

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