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#1 Jan. 18, 2011 13:26:22

a.
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Pinax: worth installing?


Guys, are there any considerable drawbacks of using Pinax for Django?
Is it worth installing, or is it better to launch and develop on
"pure" Django?

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#2 Jan. 18, 2011 13:43:37

Cal L.
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Pinax: worth installing?


I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used Pinax in production.

Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it does seem
to contain some useful features.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features merged
into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but that's
just me.

On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:26 PM, ashdesigner <antony.shash...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Guys, are there any considerable drawbacks of using Pinax for Django?
> Is it worth installing, or is it better to launch and develop on
> "pure" Django?
>
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#3 Jan. 18, 2011 14:31:04

Javier G.
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Pinax: worth installing?


On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Cal Leeming
<cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features merged
> into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but that's
> just me.

AFAICT, it's not a fork, it's a set of apps that you use on top of Django.

And _very_ few of those apps would be any better in the core.

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#4 Jan. 18, 2011 14:32:34

Russell K.
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Pinax: worth installing?


On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Cal Leeming
<cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used Pinax in production.
> Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it does seem
> to contain some useful features.
> Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features merged
> into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but that's
> just me.

I think we need to clear up some misconceptions here.

Pinax isn't a "fork" of Django. That would be like saying Zope is a
"fork" of Python. It isn't a fork - one is a tool built using the
facilities provided by the other.

Django is a low level tool. It provides the essentials to route HTTP
requests to views, and return responses. Django doesn't mandate what
you build, or how you build it, or the right apps for the job. Django
only specifies something when it's clearly in the interest of all (or
at least, most) web developers to -- thus, Django provides a Forms
framework, a template rendering system, and a Sessions framework.

However, there are many things that Django *doesn't* have an opinion
on. For example, there are many ways to implement tagging. There are
many tagging applications available. Depending on your circumstances,
one implementation might be better than another. So Django doesn't
ship with a tagging app -- it's up to end users to find a tagging app
that meets their needs.

There are some exceptions to this rule. For example, the auth
framework isn't as good as it could be, and not every website has a
need for comments. However, the broad principle stands -- Django isn't
trying to provide every tool for every possible web job.

Pinax, on the other hand, works at a higher level. Pinax targets a
specific domain -- social web apps -- and as a result, they *are* in a
position to be opinionated about the best way to do tasks like
tagging. They haven't done this by "forking" Django. They have taken
Django, and the wide community of available apps, and selected a
subset of apps that complement each other, integrate well together,
and are appropriate for their target class of websites. Pinax is more
like a meta-packaging framework for Django apps. Every Pinax site has,
at it's core, a completely vanilla Django install.

And, to follow up on the criticism/wish -- elements of Pinax *have*
made it back to Django. For example, the static files framework that
will be in Django 1.3 started life as an external app, and proved
itself to be a useful tool due, in part, to being a recommended part
of Pinax installs.

So - you really don't have to make a "Pinax or Django" decision. Any
app that can be installed in a Django site can also be installed in a
Pinax site, and every Pinax site is a Django site.

As for the original question -- are there any drawbacks? Well, not
really. Pinax suggests a particular collection of apps, but you can
use any other app you want in parallel. Pinax mandates a few standards
for project layout and the like, but for the most part, they're just
using the best practices commonly understood by experienced members of
the Django community, but the Django project itself hasn't gone to the
trouble of formalizing.

About the only potential downside I can see is that If you're not
building something in Pinax's sweet spot -- i.e., a social web site --
you won't get all the benefits that Pinax has to offer. If you're
building something *really* different, you might find that Pinax's
conventions obstruct you in ways that a raw Django install wouldn't.
However, for most "websitey" websites, this won't be an issue --
Pinax's conventions are, for the most part, a bunch of practices that
you should probably be following anyway -- Pinax just forces/provides
the tools to help you to follow them :-)

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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#5 Jan. 19, 2011 05:37:56

G.
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Pinax: worth installing?


Magee,

Wow! Now thats what we call a response.

You made me understand this subject more.

Thanks a lot Magee.

Gath.

On Jan 18, 5:32 pm, Russell Keith-Magee <russ...@keith-magee.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Cal Leeming
>
> <cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> > I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used Pinax in production.
> > Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it does seem
> > to contain some useful features.
> > Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features merged
> > into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but that's
> > just me.
>
> I think we need to clear up some misconceptions here.
>
> Pinax isn't a "fork" of Django. That would be like saying Zope is a
> "fork" of Python. It isn't a fork - one is a tool built using the
> facilities provided by the other.
>
> Django is a low level tool. It provides the essentials to route HTTP
> requests to views, and return responses. Django doesn't mandate what
> you build, or how you build it, or the right apps for the job. Django
> only specifies something when it's clearly in the interest of all (or
> at least, most) web developers to  -- thus, Django provides a Forms
> framework, a template rendering system, and a Sessions framework.
>
> However, there are many things that Django *doesn't* have an opinion
> on. For example, there are many ways to implement tagging. There are
> many tagging applications available. Depending on your circumstances,
> one implementation might be better than another. So Django doesn't
> ship with a tagging app -- it's up to end users to find a tagging app
> that meets their needs.
>
> There are some exceptions to this rule. For example, the auth
> framework isn't as good as it could be, and not every website has a
> need for comments. However, the broad principle stands -- Django isn't
> trying to provide every tool for every possible web job.
>
> Pinax, on the other hand, works at a higher level. Pinax targets a
> specific domain -- social web apps -- and as a result, they *are* in a
> position to be opinionated about the best way to do tasks like
> tagging. They haven't done this by "forking" Django. They have taken
> Django, and the wide community of available apps, and selected a
> subset of apps that complement each other, integrate well together,
> and are appropriate for their target class of websites. Pinax is more
> like a meta-packaging framework for Django apps. Every Pinax site has,
> at it's core, a completely vanilla Django install.
>
> And, to follow up on the criticism/wish -- elements of Pinax *have*
> made it back to Django. For example, the static files framework that
> will be in Django 1.3 started life as an external app, and proved
> itself to be a useful tool due, in part, to being a recommended part
> of Pinax installs.
>
> So - you really don't have to make a "Pinax or Django" decision. Any
> app that can be installed in a Django site can also be installed in a
> Pinax site, and every Pinax site is a Django site.
>
> As for the original question -- are there any drawbacks? Well, not
> really. Pinax suggests a particular collection of apps, but you can
> use any other app you want in parallel. Pinax mandates a few standards
> for project layout and the like, but for the most part, they're just
> using the best practices commonly understood by experienced members of
> the Django community, but the Django project itself hasn't gone to the
> trouble of formalizing.
>
> About the only potential downside I can see is that If you're not
> building something in Pinax's sweet spot -- i.e., a social web site --
> you won't get all the benefits that Pinax has to offer. If you're
> building something *really* different, you might find that Pinax's
> conventions obstruct you in ways that a raw Django install wouldn't.
> However, for most "websitey" websites, this won't be an issue --
> Pinax's conventions are, for the most part, a bunch of practices that
> you should probably be following anyway -- Pinax just forces/provides
> the tools to help you to follow them :-)
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)

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#6 Jan. 19, 2011 08:37:54

Oscar C.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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Pinax: worth installing?


O Mar, 18-01-2011 ás 21:37 -0800, Gath escribiu:
> Magee,
>
> Wow! Now thats what we call a response.
>
> You made me understand this subject more.
>
> Thanks a lot Magee.
>
> Gath.
>
> On Jan 18, 5:32 pm, Russell Keith-Magee <russ...@keith-magee.com>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Cal Leeming
> >
> > <cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used Pinax in
> > > production.
> > > Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it does
> > > seem
> > > to contain some useful features.
> > > Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features merged
> > > into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but
> > > that's
> > > just me.
> >
> > I think we need to clear up some misconceptions here.

> >

> > However, for most "websitey" websites, this won't be an issue --
> > Pinax's conventions are, for the most part, a bunch of practices that
> > you should probably be following anyway -- Pinax just forces/provides
> > the tools to help you to follow them :-)

+1

I tried to use pinax for a project I'm developing right now and after a
while I decided to leave it and start from scratch. As Russ says, pinax
works pretty well if your needs follow the ones established by pinax
(social sites, intranets, etc.) but if you ever need other thing, or
just need an application from pinax, it's a pain to do it.

Pinax team is rewriting most of the code to meet some standard
conventions and make the applications less attached to the pinax main
code. Also, some of the bundled projects are completely outdated, though
they work well, but if you use one of those (for example the social
site, it's the most outdated) you'll probably need to do a lot of
improvements on your own).

If you want to try pinax try the development version (it's two versions
ahead of the stable), they are doing a good work.

Regards,
Oscar Carballal

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#7 Jan. 19, 2011 13:28:31

Ivan U.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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Pinax: worth installing?


Dear ashdesigner

I haven't tried Pinax for a while but last time I did (June 2009) I
got the impression that it was an all-or-nothing affair. Pinax was
marketing itself as a "social networking site in a box" and if that's
what you wanted, it was a reasonable choice. However, it turned out
that I required only a few of the apps in pinax, and quite a few other
apps not in pinax. After some experimenting and toing and froing, I
decided it would be much simpler to build something from scratch (of
course with django these days "from scratch" is not really from
scratch).

If someone's objective was to learn about django, I don't think Pinax
would be a good choice at all, partly because all the work has already
been done for you. Mingus might be better for that, as it was created
as a case study of django applications working together.

I second Cal Leeming's question: can anyone point to Pinax sites in
the wild?

Best wishes

Ivan


On Jan 19, 8:37 am, Oscar Carballal <piz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> O Mar, 18-01-2011 ás 21:37 -0800, Gath escribiu:
>
>
>
> > Magee,
>
> > Wow! Now thats what we call a response.
>
> > You made me understand this subject more.
>
> > Thanks a lot Magee.
>
> > Gath.
>
> > On Jan 18, 5:32 pm, Russell Keith-Magee <russ...@keith-magee.com>
> > wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Cal Leeming
>
> > > <cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I would be interested to hear from anyone who has usedPinaxin
> > > > production.
> > > > Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it does
> > > > seem
> > > > to contain some useful features.
> > > > Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features
> > > > merged
> > > > into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but
> > > > that's
> > > > just me.
>
> > > I think we need to clear up some misconceptions here.
> > >
> > > However, for most "websitey" websites, this won't be an issue --
> > >Pinax'sconventions are, for the most part, a bunch of practices that
> > > you should probably be following anyway --Pinaxjust forces/provides
> > > the tools to help you to follow them :-)
>
> +1
>
> I tried to usepinaxfor a project I'm developing right now and after a
> while I decided to leave it and start from scratch. As Russ says,pinax
> works pretty well if your needs follow the ones established bypinax
> (social sites, intranets, etc.) but if you ever need other thing, or
> just need an application frompinax, it's a pain to do it.
>
> Pinaxteam is rewriting most of the code to meet some standard
> conventions and make the applications less attached to thepinaxmain
> code. Also, some of the bundled projects are completely outdated, though
> they work well, but if you use one of those (for example the social
> site, it's the most outdated) you'll probably need to do a lot of
> improvements on your own).
>
> If you want to trypinaxtry the development version (it's two versions
> ahead of the stable), they are doing a good work.
>
> Regards,
> Oscar Carballal

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#8 Jan. 19, 2011 14:00:02

a.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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Pinax: worth installing?


Dear all (and especially Russel!)))

Thank you so much for your efforts to clarify on the subject. Frankly,
I didn't expect THAT useful replies, indeed. Lot of things have been
given proper places.
In a nutshell, and in addition to what has been mentioned above, I am
wondering if there is some description of Django's best practices or
case studies in terms of a webproject layout. Although Django doesn't
force developers to follow one way or another, there should be some
description of how a good project SHOULD be designed.

Any suggestions?

Thanks again,
Anthony

On Jan 19, 4:28 pm, Ivan Uemlianin <i...@llaisdy.com> wrote:
> Dear ashdesigner
>
> I haven't tried Pinax for a while but last time I did (June 2009) I
> got the impression that it was an all-or-nothing affair.  Pinax was
> marketing itself as a "social networking site in a box" and if that's
> what you wanted, it was a reasonable choice.  However, it turned out
> that I required only a few of the apps in pinax, and quite a few other
> apps not in pinax.  After some experimenting and toing and froing, I
> decided it would be much simpler to build something from scratch (of
> course with django these days "from scratch" is not really from
> scratch).
>
> If someone's objective was to learn about django, I don't think Pinax
> would be a good choice at all, partly because all the work has already
> been done for you.  Mingus might be better for that, as it was created
> as a case study of django applications working together.
>
> I second Cal Leeming's question: can anyone point to Pinax sites in
> the wild?
>
> Best wishes
>
> Ivan
>
> On Jan 19, 8:37 am, Oscar Carballal <piz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > O Mar, 18-01-2011 ás 21:37 -0800, Gath escribiu:
>
> > > Magee,
>
> > > Wow! Now thats what we call a response.
>
> > > You made me understand this subject more.
>
> > > Thanks a lot Magee.
>
> > > Gath.
>
> > > On Jan 18, 5:32 pm, Russell Keith-Magee <russ...@keith-magee.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Cal Leeming
>
> > > > <cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > I would be interested to hear from anyone who has usedPinaxin
> > > > > production.
> > > > > Although I am discouraged by the maturity (only 2 years old?), it
> > > > > does seem
> > > > > to contain some useful features.
> > > > > Personally, I would have liked to have seen some of these features
> > > > > merged
> > > > > into the Django core, rather than forked into a separate project, but
> > > > > that's
> > > > > just me.
>
> > > > I think we need to clear up some misconceptions here.
> > > >
> > > > However, for most "websitey" websites, this won't be an issue --
> > > >Pinax'sconventions are, for the most part, a bunch of practices that
> > > > you should probably be following anyway --Pinaxjust forces/provides
> > > > the tools to help you to follow them :-)
>
> > +1
>
> > I tried to usepinaxfor a project I'm developing right now and after a
> > while I decided to leave it and start from scratch. As Russ says,pinax
> > works pretty well if your needs follow the ones established bypinax
> > (social sites, intranets, etc.) but if you ever need other thing, or
> > just need an application frompinax, it's a pain to do it.
>
> > Pinaxteam is rewriting most of the code to meet some standard
> > conventions and make the applications less attached to thepinaxmain
> > code. Also, some of the bundled projects are completely outdated, though
> > they work well, but if you use one of those (for example the social
> > site, it's the most outdated) you'll probably need to do a lot of
> > improvements on your own).
>
> > If you want to trypinaxtry the development version (it's two versions
> > ahead of the stable), they are doing a good work.
>
> > Regards,
> > Oscar Carballal

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#9 Jan. 19, 2011 16:02:29

b.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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Pinax: worth installing?


I've gone a couple of different ways on Pinax:

* I have built sites using Pinax pretty much as is, and Pinax heavily
customized.

* I have also built sites that did not start with Pinax, but added
several apps blessed by Pinax and using Pinax conventions.

Both approaches worked well.

By the way, Pinax now provides several ready-to-use projects out of
the box, not just a social project. More coming all the time,
including (I hear) community-developed open source projects.

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#10 Jan. 19, 2011 16:46:34

J.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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Pinax: worth installing?


I've found the current state of Pinax to be a bit hard to use.

Yes, it offers these 'ready-to-use' projects but they do not work out
of the box. There are CSRF problems, they don't load the initial
sample data properly, and sometimes they just don't load at all.

This is the case at least when I use the pip installation. (oh which
btw I flat out couldn't get to work period on Windows)

Overall it leaves me very worried about beginning a serious project in
Pinax. I'll definitely check back again with it at the official 0.9
release but for now I remain weary.

On Jan 18, 5:26 am, ashdesigner <antony.shash...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys, are there any considerable drawbacks of using Pinax for Django?
> Is it worth installing, or is it better to launch and develop on
> "pure" Django?

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